How To Reverse Sex Using Silver Thiosulfate Solution
The following is a safe, inexpensive, and successful method for reversing the sex of female cannabis plants. Individual plant responses may vary based upon strain, but I can verify that this process is fully effective in stimulating profuse staminate flower production.

This process can be used to:

A: create new feminized seeds from solitary prize mothers that you currently have
B: create interesting feminized-seed hybrids from different prize strains that you currently have
C: create feminized seeds for optimum outdoor use
D: accelerate the "interview" phase of cultivation, in searching for interesting new clone-mothers
E: reduce total plant numbers- great for medical users with severe plant number restrictions
F: increase variety, by helping to create stable feminized seedlines to be used as an alternative to clones

At the bottom of this post are some specific details about the chemicals used, their safety, their cost, and where to get them.

It is important to educate yourself about cannabis breeding theory and technique prior to using a method like this one. Here is a link to Robert Clarke's "Marijuana Botany", which is a very good reference.

"Marijuana Botany" by Robert Connell Clarke
(unfortunately missing the appendices)
http://www.geocities.com/hempgenes/Botany.html

It is also important to use basic safety precautions when mixing and handling these chemicals, so read the safety data links provided. The risk is similar to mixing and handling chemical fertilizers, and similar handling procedures are sufficient.

Remember: nothing will ever replace good genetics, and some of your bounty should always go back towards the professional cannabis breeders out there... the ones who have worked for many generations to come up with their true-breeding F1 masterpieces. Support professional breeders by buying their seeds. Also, order from Heaven's Stairway. Not that they need a plug from me, but they are very professional and provide very fast service worldwide.
Posted by Country Mon on October 7th, 2003 02:53 AM: 02-ST-3-f-m-at-23-days.jpg
Preparation of STS:

First, a stock solution is made. It consists of two parts (A and B) that are initially mixed separately, then blended together. Part A is ALWAYS mixed into part B while stirring rapidly. Use distilled water; tap water may cause precipitates to form.

Wear gloves while mixing and using these chemicals, and mix and use in a properly ventilated area. A mask will prevent the breathing of any dust, which is caustic. STS is colorless and odorless, and poses minimal health risks if used as described here. (See material safety data sheet links below). Note that silver nitrate and STS can cause brown stains upon drying, so spray over newspaper and avoid spilling.

Part A: .5 gram silver nitrate stirred into 500ml distilled water
Part B: 2.5 grams sodium thiosulfate (anhydrous) stirred into 500ml distilled water

The silver nitrate dissolves within 15 seconds. The sodium thiosulfate takes 30-45 seconds to dissolve.

The silver nitrate solution (A) is then mixed into the sodium thiosulfate solution (B) while stirring rapidly. The resulting blend is stock silver thiosulfate solution (STS).

This stock solution is then diluted at a ratio of 1:9 to make a working solution. For example, 100ml of stock STS is added to 900ml of distilled water. This is then sprayed on select female plants.

Both the stock STS and the working solution should be refrigerated after use, as well as the powdered chemicals, to avoid activity loss. Excess working solution can be safely poured down the drain after use (with ample running water) with negligible environmental impact. It's pretty cheap.

Each liter of stock STS will make ten 1-liter batches of working solution of STS. With the minimum amount of base chemicals ordered from Photographer's Formulary (see link below), this means that each 1-liter bottle of working solution STS costs less than 9 cents, and can treat 15-20 mid-sized plants. That's 200 1-liter batches of STS for $18. Note that the distilled water costs far more than the chemicals.
Posted by Country Mon on October 7th, 2003 02:56 AM: 03--ST-3-f-m-at-23-days.jpg
Application:

The STS working solution is sprayed on select female plants until runoff. Do the spraying over newspaper in a separate area from the flower room. You probably won't smell anything, but ventilate anyway. You now have what I call a "F>M plant"; a female plant that will produce male flowers.

After the F>M plant dries move it into 12/12 immediately. This is usually done three to four weeks prior to the date that the target (to be pollinated) plants will be ready to pollinate. Response times may vary slightly depending upon the strain. More specific times can be determined by trial with your own individual strains. In my trials it took 26 days for the first pollen. 30-35 days seems optimum for planning purposes.

So, assuming that a target plant needs 3-4 weeks to produce fully mature seeds, a strain that takes 8 weeks to mature should be moved into flower at about the same time as the female>male plant. A target plant that finishes flowering in 6 weeks needs to be moved into flower later (10 days or so) so that it doesn't finish before the seeds can fully mature.

A seeded individual branch can be left to mature on a plant for a bit longer, while harvesting the other seedless buds if they finish first. Just leave enough leaves on for the plant for it to stay healthy.

Effects:

Within days I noticed a yellowing of the leaves on the F>M plants. This effect persisted for two weeks or so; after this they became green again, except for a few of the larger fans. The plants otherwise seemed healthy. No burning was observed. Growth stopped dead for the first ten days, and then resumed slowly. No stretch was ever seen. After two weeks the F>M plants were obviously forming male flower clusters. Not just a few clusters of balls, but complete male flower tops. One plant still formed some pistillate flowers, but overall it was predominantly male.

It is strange indeed to see an old girlfriend that you know like the back of your hand go through a sex change. I'll admit that things were awkward between us at first.

When the F>M plants look like they may soon open and release pollen, ( 3-1/2 to 4 weeks) move them from the main flower room into another unventilated room or closet with lighting on a 12/12 timer. Don't worry too much about watts per square foot; it will only be temporary.

When the pollen flies, move your target plants into the closet and pollinate.

A more controlled approach is to isolate the F>M plants in a third remote closet (no light is necessary in this one, as they are releasing pollen now and are nearly finished anyway). In this remote other closet the pollen is very carefully collected in a plastic produce bag or newspaper sleeve and then brought back to the lighted closet, where the target plants are now located. If this is done, be careful to not mix pollen types by letting the F>Ms dust each other. Avoid movement, or use yet another closet.

Take special care to not let pollen gather on the outside of this bag- a static charge is sometimes present. Drop small open clusters of blooms inside and then close the bag at the mouth and shake. Important: next, step outside and slowly release the excess air from the bag, collapsing it completely, so that pollen doesn't get released accidently. Point downwind; don't let it get on your hands or clothes.

This collapsed pollinated bag is now very carefully slipped over only one branch and is then tied off tightly at the mouth around the branch stem with a twist tie or tape, sealing the pollen inside. Let the bag inflate slightly with air again before sealing it off, so the branch can breathe. This technique keeps the entire plant from seeding. Agitate the bag a bit after tying it off to distribute the pollen. Don't forget to label the branch so you know which seeds are which. Other branches on this same plant can be hit with different pollen sources.

If no lighted closet is available, the plant can be moved back into the main room, but- be very careful: pollen is sneaky. After 4-5 days, the bag is gently removed and the plant completes it's flowering cycle.

Yet another method has worked well for me. I position the target plants in a non-ventilated lighted closet, and then I collect pollen on a piece of mirror or glass. This is then carefully applied to the pistils of one pre-labeled branch by using a very fine watercolor paintbrush. Care is taken to not agitate the branch or the pollen. No sneezing. The plant needs to be in place first; moving it after pollination can shake pollen free and blow this technique.

Regardless of technique, at completion you will have feminized seeds. Let them dry for 2-4 weeks.
Posted by Country Mon on October 7th, 2003 02:58 AM: 04-ST-3-f-m-at-25-days.jpg
About the chemicals:

Silver nitrate is a white crystalline light-sensitive chemical that is commonly used in photography. It is also used in babies' eyes at birth to prevent blindness. It can cause mild skin irritation, and it stains brown. Avoid breathing. I didn't notice any smell or fumes, but ventilation is recommended. Be sure to wash the spray bottle well before you use it elsewhere; better yet: devote a bottle to STS use. A half gram is a surprisingly small amount; it would fit inside a gel capsule.

Here are links to some safety data. A Google search will bring up more information if needed.

Silver Nitrate info:
http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/ipcsneng/neng1116.html
http://www.lions.odu.edu/~redwards/...%20solution.pdf

For a realistic hazard level comparison, here is a link for the safety and handling data for Ammonium Nitrate, or common fertilizer:
http://www.skcgulfcoast.com/nioshdb...ng/neng0216.htm

Sodium thiosulfate is also a white crystalline chemical commonly used in photography; it is used in photographic fixers. Same general cautions apply, minus the staining. This formula uses the anhydrous type. Non-hazardous.

Sodium Thiosulfate info:
http://ptcl.chem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/SO/s...hiosulfate.html
http://www.med-chem.com/MSDS/Sodium_Thiosulf.htm

------------------

Where to get the chemicals:

http://www.photoformulary.com

silver nitrate: 10 grams: $10
http://www.photoformulary.com/Deskt...yID=27&langID=0

sodium thiosulfate (anhydrous): 100 grams: $3.95
http://www.photoformulary.com/Deskt...yID=28&langID=0

Postage runs around $4. Fast service. Can be shipped to Canada.
Posted by Country Mon on October 7th, 2003 03:00 AM: 05-Cloud-9-m-f-at-25-days.jpg
Have fun experimenting with this technique. Use it responsibly. There are a few good threads here at CW that go into the pros and cons of transsexual agents and feminized seeds. Read them. And most importantly, use STS with quality F1 strains developed by professional breeders for the most consistent results.

A huge thanks to Fet from Spice Brothers Seeds for his help and advice in using this technique. I simply brought together available information from previous posts and tried my own recipe. I'm thrilled to share the results. Future tests will be done to adjust the formula so the molar ratios of the chemicals are correct, as specified by Gobgoober (thanks, Gob) but the formula posted here is completely effective.

CM


"Knowledge is Power"
Posted by Country Mon on October 7th, 2003 03:08 AM: ST-3-at-40-days.jpg
Here's a picture of what I consider an "elite" clone. This is the clone that I used for the sex reversal project.
Posted by Fet on October 7th, 2003 03:40 AM:
Country Mon great info good to see some one really helping the public out instead of just cashing in .

Fet
Posted by LordOvertoke on October 7th, 2003 03:51 AM:

CM....thumbs up on your sizable contribution!

great job. __________________
Learnin' To Scrog - Custom Avatars - Gonads & Strife - Trailer Park Boys - 400 Watt Medical Closet


Posted by Country Mon on October 7th, 2003 04:19 AM: glad to contribute...
Everyone here at CW has taught me a great deal. I see the results of that advice every 7 weeks or so, and I thank you all for that.

I hope this can help people keep their plant numbers down. Especially medical users. Nobody should ever have to pay for this type of information.

CM
Posted by eliteXelite on October 8th, 2003 06:24 AM:

Country Mon,

Good on ya for taking a task and seeing it through. Bad on ya for claiming that your information is safe. Unfortunately, this is the nature of the Internet; from bombs to oxidizers.....

Im glad to see that you are embracing what ive been saying for a year now about feminized breedings...there are many more valuable uses and applications for feminization than you list, but i take it you are not a plant breeder either.... I also see you are sending out accolades...dont forget where MOST of your experiment information came from....

Please do the community a favor and take a real look at what it is youre doing.. learn how to do it safely, THEN teach it, to minimize the dangers of your anonymous 'free flow'. Understand that not everyone is going to wear the gloves and the masks; they wont weigh it up right, they wont store it in a safe place, and they may spill or THROW IT AWAY where it doesnt belong ( on themselves and/or THE ECOSYSTEM)... think about where youll stand in the scheme of things when your information becomes health or waterway hazards. Thank you...

eXe __________________
Since the 1960s, elite clones and families have been obtained from several imported landraces through selective incest breeding in the USA. These, and hybrids between selected clones, form the basis of the modern drug cultivars.(Clarke 1993)


Posted by Country Mon on October 8th, 2003 12:42 PM: Thanks again, Fet...
Oh, EXE.

"I also see you are sending out accolades...dont forget where MOST of your experiment information came from...."

You must have missed that part. Yes. Thanks go out again to Fet, for being helpful, realistic, and restrained under fire. He could have kept this information for his own use or profit but instead he shared it, and now we can all benefit. I also made it clear in my post that the information came from other posts. What's your point? You didn't contribute anything. Other than paranoia.

You are implying that data compiled for the International Safety Data Sheets is somehow misleading, and I find that a bit silly at this point. Especially when compared to the data sheet for common fertilizer. Did you read the safety data? Somehow I suspect that such professionals might just know what they are talking about. Ya think? We all have mixed ferts, and now we can all mix STS safely. Get over it. The facts have been put forth.

GobGoober came in late but very strong... he and Lucifer will have the final recipe tested soon. Sounds like he has some chemical experience... he must have a screw loose to mess with this stuff. It's pure evil. Maybe he has a hazmat suit

Learning is often very much about building upon what others have started. I'm not all hung up on who gets credit, because now we all can benefit from this technique.

Now, hopefully, thousands of medical users won't have to grow twice as many plants as they need to get a crop, just because they couldn't afford your alternative. And the many many people like me who aren't even slightly concerned with meeting your definition of "breeder", and just want to explore a few feminized crosses at home while keeping their numbers down, can do it themselves.

Sweet.

CM
Posted by whitefly on October 8th, 2003 04:55 PM:
yup and most modern photographic equipment places will have a service to dispose of these chems safely, I have taken photo chems for disposal many times
Posted by Country Mon on October 8th, 2003 08:43 PM:
Silver nitrate and sodium thiosulfate in these small concentrations can be safely disposed of down the drain with running water.

I have worked for publishing/pre-press houses for years who dump their darkroom chemicals right down the drain... 40 gallons at a time. And those chemical concentrations are considerably higher than this.

Lucifer was kind enough to post this info:

Q. What forms of silver are present in a sewage treatment plant discharge?

A. Silver that is present in POTW sludge and wastewater discharges is primarily silver sulfide and silver bound to particulate matter, with small amounts of metallic silver, silver chloride and silver organic complexes. The silver thiosulfate that is present in photographic processing solutions is relatively non-toxic and is biologically degraded to silver sulfide. Silver sulfide is one of the most stable and insoluble of the metal sulfides.

Q. What is the mobility and stability of silver released into other environmental media such as soil or groundwater?

A. Silver thiosulfate, the compound commonly found in photographic processes, is not toxic to plants or soil organisms if it were spilled onto the ground. Silver thiosulfate is rapidly oxidized by air to silver sulfide and sulfate. Silver sulfide is insoluble, very stable, not biologically available and not mobile in soils.

CM
Posted by Country Mon on October 13th, 2003 03:44 AM: Update...
Hello again...

Yesterday was day 32. I have just completed the first pollination from my reversed females. I will know within a week or so if the pollen is viable... it looked healthy.

I have given the camera back to my friend, so no further pics will be available. But the F>Ms still look pretty similar to the photos already posted.

I did notice some resistance to finishing in the two strains I am working with. As has been discussed elsewhere, some strains never produce viable pollen at all, even though they do fully reverse. The buds become very well developed, and then just kind of sit there.

So it seems important to point out that just because a strain reverses doesn't mean you are home-free. "Other reversal methods" have this same issue; it relates mostly to the strain used, and possibly to environmental conditions. I still got plenty of usable pollen from both plants, so I'm happy regardless.

I have some thoughts about how to address this slow-down. Please understand that I am still learning- I don't claim to be an expert of any kind. Hopefully we can work out these minor bugs together...? We have some great chemical minds on board now.

First, I am seeing some hairs (pistils) forming at the very tips of the male blooms. To me this indicates that the ethylene inhibition is ending. I can only speculate that this is also inhibiting the full maturation of the male blooms. It is possible that a second application of STS at around 2 weeks could prevent this. Or, maybe a stronger formula to begin with. I would bet on the former, since the formula I used did cause a full reversal initially.

Second, temperatures have dropped. This is a key factor that I overlooked. I have them in a closet that is in the mid-sixties, and I know this is not optimum. Having temps around 80 degrees is much better. I will make that adjustment and see if it helps.

Fet has pointed out to me that warm temperatures and a bit of manual help can speed the process along. Which is what Clarke says in 'Marijuana Botany'- he suggests removing the blooms as they are almost opening and collecting them in a small jar or petri dish. Moving these to a warmer area can make them release their pollen.

The big question to me at this point though is: will re-spraying at two weeks make these difficult strains follow through with pollen? Some may never produce, and that may just be the way it goes. But maybe they can be finessed.

---------------

What's next:

I will report wether my pollen was viable in a week or so.

Lucifer will be doing an experiment soon in which he tries 5 different strengths of STS on 5 identical clones. He will be using GobGoober's formula (as found in another thread), which has a proper molar ratio, and he will vary the strength of his working solution from full strength to a dilution of 1:4.

1:4 is very similar to my current formula. This will answer many important questions relating to: ideal working solution strength, at what point plants burn, and if the ethylene-inhibiting effects can be prolonged by initial treatment with a stronger formula.

I will begin a new round of tests tonight. I will use GobGoober's formula at a dilution of 1:4 (to stay similar to my other formula, but also have the proper molar ratio). I will treat the same ST#3 clone, and will spray it again at 2 weeks.

This will tell us wether or not a second treatment will help prolong the ethylene inhibition (I'm sure it will), and more importantly, wether or not this second spray will help the male blooms finish developing until pollen release. That would be a lucky outcome... let's hope so.

Stay tuned...

CM
Posted by Country Mon on October 13th, 2003 11:12 PM:
Hey there, GobGoober...

you were saying:

"It is possible that this form of hermaphroditism inhibits the formation of viable pollen in sex reversal. If so, it would point to the X chromosone as carrying the gene for this particular type of hermaphroditim."

Why do you think this is the case- rather than that it is simply the result of the ethylene inhibition deminishing, with the plant's natural state- pistillate flower formation- returning?

This is not a permanant reversal we are getting here, but a temporary one... this was expected to happen; just not quite so soon. This is why for me the next step will be to see if a second spraying after two weeks solves this problem. It may, it may not. It will just buy more time before the pistils begin forming again, hopefully.

This problem obviously has a genetic element to it, such as with the C99's troubles with reversal, so you may be right. In such cases maybe we can find a way around it.

I agree that it is probably the cause for the flowers not fully maturing, though. Oddly enough, it is the 100% male ST#3 that has this problem, not the 75% male Cloud 9 plant. The CL9 is not showing any new pistillate growth yet, and it had more pollen.

Hmm.

CM
Posted by Fet on October 14th, 2003 02:43 AM:
I'm watching and waiting ..good info guys
Posted by Country Mon on October 22nd, 2003 08:34 PM: update...
Hello again...

I just wanted to give an update on my first round of trials using STS.

I can now confirm that the Cloud 9 F>M has produced viable pollen. I have four different strains that have many seeds forming, so I will tentatively call it a success. I look forward to feminized variations of the Cloud 9 strain, as it is my best.

However, the Sweet Tooth #3 plant did not create viable pollen. Althgough it did fully become a "male", it began to revert to a female state sooner than the Cloud 9 plant, and the male blooms never matured properly.

As GobGoober has said, this is probably due to a genetic trait that makes it difficult, or possibly even impossible, to get viable pollen from certain strains. C99 has been mentioned as another resistant strain.

My hope is that a second application of STS at around day 14 will further inhibit ethylene production and therefore prevent the female reversion for long enough to let the male blooms mature. At this point I am purely speculating about this. But it may work.

I have sprayed another ST#3 plant (same clone) to further experiment with this concept. In two weeks a second application will be applied, and we will know the results of that approach in about 5 weeks. I will report my findings at that time.

CM
Posted by lucifer on October 25th, 2003 04:51 AM:
I now have the chemis in hand and will begin my little tests shortly, after going through the math it looks to me like there is some difference between the original formula posted by cm and the revised version of cm's formula as interpreted by gob, so I think I will come up with my own numbers and see what happens, I should see results in 3 weeks or less, going to save the details until the experiment has shown a result...cheers luci
Posted by Fet on October 25th, 2003 04:15 PM:

Country Mon interesting results years back if I remember correctly we sprayed some strains 1 week before flowering and 1 week into flowering then no more after that as it had some terrible affects on the plants.

Just a suggestion . __________________
Take care
Fet

Spice Brothers Seeds


Posted by Country Mon on October 25th, 2003 06:22 PM:
Hello, Fet...

I'm hoping that the diluted solution I'm using will not affect the plants too adversely. In the test that I just ran the plants handled the first spray very well, with only some minor yellowing. They fully greened up again by week two after spraying... so my hope is that they will pull through a second spraying at that time.

We'll see. Thanks for the input.

CM
Posted by rodwal on October 26th, 2003 01:11 AM:

have access to a chem lab so was able to make this as per cm instuctions.
I had applied said concentration to point of run off at week 1 into 12/12. I have used on a Brz original female clone also have another at same stage but is control one ( untreated).
The Brz to date has proved to be in my opinion a pure female as I have been unable to force a sex change via the common methods ie light depravation/variance, nute and watering changes but no luck, which led me too the above opinion.
I have included here a pic of the clone and if you look close enough you can see the staminates starting to form __________________
always smokin
rodwal


Posted by Country Mon on October 27th, 2003 01:18 AM: nice!
Rodwal...

Thanks for posting. It's nice to see some other positive results. Pardon my ignorance, but what exactly is "Brz"?

I also wanted to say: keep your girl>boy plenty warm during the entire flower period... in the 80s during daytime, and in the 70s at night. This can help coax pollen towards the end.

Keep us posted. Nice picture.

CM
Posted by rodwal on October 28th, 2003 12:27 AM:

TY for tips, will keep updating as it progresses.
as for the Brz. is just a name I have attached to a plant I have had for some years, is a def indica based plant with the best aroma and high tho a low yielder, also finishes under 50 days, its genetics I not sure and have surmised it to be Afghani +++?? lol
but is still a keeper. __________________
always smokin
rodwal


Posted by cancerous#z on October 29th, 2003 09:51 PM:
Has anyone tryed to reverse males to bud? It be interestin to see if some of these handsome males produce buds? So what are your thoughts?
Posted by lucifer on October 30th, 2003 10:18 AM:
to make all-male seeds of course!

you can get ethylene from orchard supply houses, comes in an aerosol can I believe, I recall seeing a bit of info on male reversal in cannabis using ethylene hope someone else can confirm this
Posted by skrog on October 31st, 2003 09:33 PM:
if you need ethylene just put there some fresh banana peels and when they get brown, you know they released A LOT of ethylene, then u change them.
This could flood a grow with etylene but it would require to stop the ventilation...
ANYHOW i doubt applying ethylene would reverse males (but if you feel like experimenting, plz proove me wrong) : whereas lack of ethylene does turn F into M there is absolutely no clue to believe the opposite is true.
Ethylene won't prevent male expression (IMHO)

stay safe
(and, i repeat, experiment if you feel like !...that's just my **thoughts**)
SkrOg
Posted by Fet on November 3rd, 2003 07:04 AM:

CM any more updated info you would like to share? __________________
Take care
Fet

Spice Brothers Seeds


Posted by Country Mon on November 3rd, 2003 09:06 PM:
Hello there, Fet...

Here's where I'm at:

I got viable pollen from one of my test subjects, but none from the other one.

There is certainly a resistance to maturity present in certain strains... in my case, the ST#3. It turned completely "male" based upon appearance, but the blooms didn't mature to the point of viable pollen release. They came very close... but stalled. Tests of other phenos of ST#3 pending.

The second test subject (Cloud 9) was approximately 75% staminate by appearance, with pistillate flowers interspersed. This one gave plenty of viable pollen. Seeds have formed. Next comes the issue of seed viability- but currently I have no reason to believe they won't be viable. I'll report back on that.

------------

Another test currently underway will determine if a second STS spray two weeks after the first will prolong the ethylene inhibition.

Tests will also soon begin using five different concentrations of STS, to determine at what point the plant begins to be damaged, and also to determine if a stronger formulation will prolong ethylene inhibition.

This will be followed by a similar test that uses the chosen formula from the above concentration test, this one using 5 different unrelated strains, to evaluate a cross-section of responses so a final formula can be chosen.

Yet another test to begin soon will use a GA spray on the formed staminate blooms to see if this will facilitate viable pollen production, as recommended by GobGoober.

ST#3 seems the perfect candidate for these tests. The rumor mill suggests C99 and Williams Wonder are also good candidates for testing, showing a similar resistance to producing viable pollen.

It is entirely possible that some of these strains will never reach maturity, regardless of chemical persuasion technique.

I should have a lot more information to share over the next three months. Of course, one person's results only become valid when repeated by others. Looking forward to hearing other's results, and also thoughts about refinements of the process.

Things are awful quiet around here about this- I have a hunch that all you quiet folks are quietly testing this stuff right now. I'm sure we'll figure it out together.

CM
Posted by lucifer on November 4th, 2003 06:12 AM:
yes I am day 9 using 3 of the same clone with 3 diff rates the weakest being roughly the same strength as cm's original...although my math led me to diff conclusions, the second spray was twice as strong and the 3rd 3x as strong and no burning
Posted by rodwal on November 4th, 2003 01:03 PM:

just to up date on my small test with my clone, I seem to be getting the same affect as experienced by CM with his ST#3, the staminates have formed to stage of opening, just a few mind you , but no sign of any pollen.

To me it seems to have stalled, and would be more inclined to give a 2nd dose after 7days.
btw mine was 1st treated on 9th October .
will post updated pic tomorrow __________________
always smokin
rodwal


Posted by lucifer on November 4th, 2003 09:03 PM:
ethylene (ethephon) is sold as Florel and Cerone, mixed with water to desirable ppm and sprayed on the plants

another potential use for male sex reversal is to get those males to bud and then smoke that bud to evaluate which male(s) are desirable for future dioecious matings
Posted by rodwal on November 5th, 2003 01:57 AM:

here is latest pic __________________
always smokin
rodwal


Posted by rodwal on November 5th, 2003 02:03 AM:

again __________________
always smokin
rodwal


Posted by aboutToTryThis on November 11th, 2003 01:07 AM:
bump, any updates?

I've ordered my chems and will be trying with Nirvana Afghani and Bogglegum. Clones currently rooting.

Gotta a friend who will be trying with Nirvana Big Bud, Nirvana Misty and Flying Dutchman's Royal Orange. Clones to be taken in a couple weeks.

Hope you have some success on the SWT#3. I wanted to try it next!
Maybe two doses will do it.
Posted by anybody on November 18th, 2003 05:15 AM:
any updates
Posted by lucifer on November 19th, 2003 12:39 AM:
the buildup of male inflorescences @ day 22 on a purple pheno blueberry sativa, this one is at 3X cm's original dilution according to my math, newspaper down in the spray area to absorb the overspray, goggles and gloves at all times, no exposed skin recommended
Posted by ZeuS on November 20th, 2003 03:34 AM:
awsome, just awsome
Posted by lucifer on November 30th, 2003 07:18 AM:
it's day 32 and I have had to manually flower my test plants by moving them between a veg room and a dark closet for the past week so I'd imagine the flowering has slowed a bit but it still looks like they will be spitting in about a week or so, this blueberry sativa is a pretty slow flowerer so I'm not expecting it to spit pollen in any record times

I am going to spray a few more plants soon with higher concentrations of sts for sake of curiousity, always interesting to see what our toxic limits are, isn't that what they do when they test animals, also going to try spraying them with nitrozyme (growth plus) within the first week after spraying sts, nitrozyme is a kelp extract that is high in cytokinins, auxins and gibberellins
Posted by aboutToTryThis on December 21st, 2003 07:38 AM:
Finally got started. Been waiting on a harvest for needed room to STS the new clones. Sprayed one of my Afghani female clones tonight and put in into 12/12 (in a newly created male only area). The other female Ghani will go into 12/12 in 3 nights when I harvest her mom and aunt.

The Bogglegum rooted slowly (poor selection of clone choice on my part , I believe) and is a few weeks behind, which is fine, since their mom and aunt are a couple weeks away from harvest.

Expect to see the yellow and stopped growth on the F>M Afghani soon. Looking forward to those totally feminized BALLS !

My friend is a month behind me trying this with the Big Bud, Misty and Royal Orange.

Any updates with the Sweet Tooth #3. I really wanted to grow that next and would sure like to apply this technique to it.

Is SWT #3 the only strain everyone has had trouble with? Are there others?
Posted by Turbo00 on December 21st, 2003 08:36 AM:
Good Stuff
Posted by lucifer on January 2nd, 2004 08:29 AM:
just wanted to let y'all know that I achieved pollen today 23 days after spraying with STS and putting into 12/12, how is everyone else making out? Hey Fet how many days does it take you on average?
a little voice in my head said we are attempting to upload a certain amount of silver into the plant's endocrine system, anyone read the mohan ram paper just curious what their theory is
Posted by Fet on January 2nd, 2004 03:35 PM:

I'm real tired at the moment and memory is lacking at this second.
If I remember correctly and will certainly be able to tell you freshly in the next few weeks . But 3 weeks maybe a odd sac or two but no real amounts of pollen until about the 5th week. Sure you will get a little amounts but to dust a good number of plants it wasn't until about the 5th week .
Don't hold me to that ...stoned and wasted time for Bed cya __________________
Take care
Fet

Spice Brothers Seeds


Posted by lucifer on January 2nd, 2004 10:38 PM:
cool, I must be doing something right because I just harvested 20 fully plump sacs of pollen on day 24, I'll see if I can get a pic up, she's gonna explode! ...can you say female ejaculation?
Posted by Fet on January 3rd, 2004 12:32 AM:

lucifer you must have your shit together bro if you got around 20 pods already happening well done!. But it also might depend on the strain what strain are you playing with again blueberry?
Keep us informed on how things turn out as I'm surely interested if you can lower flowering times for viable pollen. __________________
Take care
Fet

Spice Brothers Seeds


Posted by lucifer on January 3rd, 2004 05:02 AM:
yes it's a sativa pheno blueberry that takes 9 weeks, also have fig skunk, another 9 weeker, going which looks to be about a week behind
Posted by aboutToTryThis on January 4th, 2004 09:14 PM:
I'm two weeks into 12/12 after spraying my Afghani. Still no balls, but I am patiently waiting...

Bogglegum to get sprayed in about 1 week.

Good Work Lucifer!
Posted by lucifer on January 5th, 2004 02:56 AM:
so I've hit the same clone with sts now 4x with different titration rates, for me at least I am finding the original recipe to be at the low end of what it takes to flip em, my current spray was far more concentrated and now I have a good idea of what is the max silver that this clone can ingest in one sitting
I'm going to try spraying the same clone again this time twice at slightly lower titrations, the first spray I'm going to do about 10 days before initiating, the second when I put it into 12/12 just to see what happens
the one thing I noticed is that the plants are in shock for at least 2 days after a good spray - it looks like it takes a few days to transfer all the silver from the leaves into the sapstream so I would recommend keeping them away from the light for the first few days and then gradually move them to the light , a foliar spray of B1 applied 24 hours before the STS spray would prob be a good idea
I'm going to get some cobalt chloride at some point and add some of that to the mix, I've seen references in some hort publications to the 2 used together in similar applications, I found a ratio of STS:CoCl that will give me a starting point
Posted by aboutToTryThis on January 11th, 2004 02:34 AM:
Well all I can say is WooHoo !!! GOT BALLS at day 17 after spraying! This is too awesome. I will be collecting pollen soon. I am spraying the Bogglegum tomorrow night and my friend is spraying next weekend (orange, misty and big bud). This is just too awesome, thanks to all for sharing the info.

Lucifer, what do you recommend for a mix since you have been trying different variations? I used this: .5 grams of Silver Nitrate to 200 ml of water and 1.9 grams of Sodium Thiosulfate to 800 ml of water.

Again, this is f**kin awesome and I can't help but giggle... It sure put smiles on my and my buddies faces to find those BALLS the other night.
Posted by lucifer on January 11th, 2004 03:07 AM:
my mix is proprietry but if yoy send me US$60 I'll mail you an ounce but only if you're in canada
Posted by Fet on January 11th, 2004 03:37 PM:
..lol lucifer you got to start at US $100 a bottle don't cut yourself short hehe then when it fails a few times drop the price add a new chem eg: cobalt and start marketing again..hehe

Just jokin bro but couldn't help myself.
Posted by lucifer on January 11th, 2004 04:33 PM:
yeah I'm going to call this marvelous product 'The Selfmaster'
hey boys and girls it's a sexual reversal agent and a temporary tattoo ink, yes just paint some on your skin with a brush and in moments you will have semi-permanent black skin and a temporary loss of sperm viability, can you say free birth control
act now and I'll throw in a pack of zigzags
don't wait, order in the next 15 minutes and I include these magical folding scissors with their very own carrying case
Posted by aboutToTryThis on January 11th, 2004 05:24 PM:
Lucifer,
Not trying to be an ASS, but with each bump back to the top of the the forum and with each new read of this thread your market shrinks... In all honesty there will always be people to buy your mix, people who won't mix the chemicals for themselves. Did you realize there is already a product to market called eXe? Anyway, I do wish you the best of luck in your venture and enjoy reading your updates.

Country Mon or any others,
Have you tried spraying the SWT#3 twice? If so, were you able to get viable pollen with two sprayings? I really want to grow SWT#3 and G13xHP next.

This is simply BAD ASS !
Posted by lucifer on January 11th, 2004 09:33 PM:
it was a joke
Posted by aboutToTryThis on January 11th, 2004 09:53 PM:
oops, seemed me was a bit stoned (imagine that, lol!) and missed the humor Lucifer. I get it now. So what mix can you recommend?

Speaking of stoned, let me go partake of some more of the Afghani now...
Posted by lucifer on January 12th, 2004 03:29 AM:
I suggest you go to the original recipe and instead of diluting 1:9 as suggested try something like 1:2 or 1:3 and don't give the plants full light for a few days while the silver is being assimilated, then gradually move the plants closer to the light, make sure your target plant is healthy and not some clone that's barely rooted, also a foliar spray with a bit of vitamin B1 and/or a few drops of rescue remedy the next morning will help overcome shock, another thing to keep in mind root mass is directly related to yield so if want more pollen then give it as big a pot as needed, 2-3 gallons for a 2 foot tall plant would be good, another thing I've noticed is that the sts treated plants don't seem to stretch as much
Posted by aboutToTryThis on January 12th, 2004 04:31 AM:
Thank for the reply Lucifer. I will dilute at 1:2 or 1:3 for the Bogglegum. I have delayed that spraying by a couple of days.

Thanks for the other pointers regarding the vitamin B1 and rescue remedy. My clones are very strong before spraying. They are rooted and vegged for at least 3 weeks before spraying, plenty of roots. Thanks for that helpful tidbit.

As far as the pots go, don't know, I use DWC. Results are 100% so far for me in DWC, we'll see how Lady Bogglegum does.

One thing I did notice was my Afghani does not have pollen sacs all over just on selected branches. Female flowers also way out number male flowers, but there are more than enough male flowers to pollinate a bunch of females.
Posted by lucifer on January 12th, 2004 06:45 AM:
well soil or no soil the root mass will largely determine how much pollen you can make, dwc will make a lot of pollen and fast, the stabler the environment that you are flowering in the better, I'd say if you gave that afghan a higher concentration sts there would be more sacs for sure, possibly you did not get even absorption through the whole plant, I actually use a sonic bloom cd ( http://www.sonicbloom.com ) which helps the leaves absorb foliar sprays, make sure you spray the underside of the leaves that is the most important surface, with higher concentrations there should be no female flower production for 2-3 weeks, just sacs
Posted by aboutToTryThis on January 12th, 2004 08:02 PM:
ok, so I am about to mix up solution for the Bogglegum and I go back to read the original recipe as Lucifer suggests. Lucifer said dillute at 1:2 or 1:3 instead of 1:9, well... I will not blame it on being stoned again, but..., anyway I missed this part of the original recipe:


"This stock solution is then diluted at a ratio of 1:9 to
make a working solution. For example, 100ml of stock
STS is added to 900ml of distilled water. This is then
sprayed on select female plants."


So in reality I already have a very strong solution. I did some math (while stoned, so beware) and the orignal solution dilluted at 1:2 would be roughly .25 grams of silver nitrate and 1.25 grams of sodium thiosulfate to 1000 ml of water. My mix for my Afghani was .5 grams of SN and 1.9 grams of ST to 1000 ml of water (without any dilluting). OOPS, however it worked and the plant did not seem to suffer much at all. It was stunted briefly but that is all. Ther was very little yellowing. I am going to use this same mix on the Bogglegum since it did the trick on the Aghani.

So, if my stoned math is correct, the solution I used was twice as strong as Lucifer recommend. Straight Stock with no dilluting.

Bogglegum results to follow soon.
Posted by lucifer on January 12th, 2004 08:12 PM:
well there ya go, when this stuff burns it's a grey black on the fringe and veins of the leaves not yellow
Posted by troutmaster on January 22nd, 2004 02:13 AM:
Hi Country mon,
I was just wondering if you were ever able to find the exact mix on the STS.
Troutmaster
Posted by Fet on January 25th, 2004 05:58 AM:

aboutToTryThis let us know how it works out

I suspect that all plants can be reversed, it is simply a matter of finding the dosage and concentration that works best for each individual clone. STS inteferes with normal hormone reactions, and hormone levels vary from plant to plant, so it stands to reason that STS levels will also have to vary in order to succesfully counteract the action of the hormone.
Just finding the balance is the problem.

Similar to Cees Bloombooster that containeds GA.
Some strains it worked great on while others created hermies just getting the ratio worked is the time consuming problem.

I suspect that ExE problem was finding the correct dose rate and thats why many strains had failed for us.
This time consuming problem I guess is what we were paying for not the cost of the ingredients but the research time that went into optimizing the dosage for Cannabis.
Just a shame that Exe/Hibe didn't do his research a little better before releasing onto the public for a quick buck.
Maybe his new solution cobalt is a stronger dose but he still has not been able to answer my question : What strains have produced viable pollen with his magic mix?
I'm sure he won't make the same mistake with his new mix that reverses Males to females.

I think I'll just continue with the female side of things before leaving this unfinished project and starting a new one of the opposite sex. __________________
Take care
Fet

Spice Brothers Seeds


Posted by troutmaster on January 25th, 2004 06:32 PM:
Hi Fet,
Hey thanks alot for the reply. I am definitely going to stay on the female side, . I Knew about the exe, & almost bought some, glad I didn't. This bloombooster did Cees just start selling that, becuz I wrote him a while back & he didn't say anything about BB, he just said he was working with Ga. Is that BB wholesale only or can you get small amounts.
Maybe I am jumping the gun, Iwill just wait to hear more on how the sts does.

"Just a shame that Exe/Hibe didn't do his research a little better before releasing onto the public for a quick buck. "


Yeh and he jumped on CM for doing the same, & CM did it for FREE.
Keep me posted
Troutmaster
Posted by Fet on January 26th, 2004 02:42 AM:

troutmaster I'm a little unsure what happen with Cees/ Mr XX bloombooster I feel he might have run into a few problems with dose rates for various strains. He had a few products he was working CO tabs, freeze dried critters, sex reversal products and bloomboosters. I did run a few test runs of his products but he had a few family problems at the time and put every thing on hold. He is still sending out his crazy comedy emails that hasn't changed and his love for the plant is just as strong.
I'll have to drop over and visit him one of these days wow that guy can toke! __________________
Take care
Fet

Spice Brothers Seeds


Posted by Fet on January 26th, 2004 02:45 AM:

Here are the usual comedy pics he just send out that are not X rated.lol
Yeh a little off beat from the subject but worth a laugh. __________________
Take care
Fet

Spice Brothers Seeds


Posted by troutmaster on January 26th, 2004 08:42 PM:
Hey Fet,
That Cees is one wild dude, Do you think he is trying sex reversal on the rats,lol.
As you can probably tell I am new to PC,S & this site. I think this site rules, I have learned a hell of a lot in just a week or so, The people here are really mellow. I need to learn the site & how to work it.

I dont know anybody who has used your strains, but after looking at the badass pictures yesterday I will recommend them for sure. I know you are running low on a lot of strains, but can you recommend 1-2 strains 50%SA. 50% in. heavy yield, real potent & about 1 meter 3'4' that you have a good supply left.
Thanks again
Troutmaster
Posted by aboutToTryThis on January 27th, 2004 03:15 AM:
The strong mix I used seems to be working out.

The Afghani at day 37 is slowly producing some pollen. If took 18 days to reverse sex and did not produce a lot of male flowers. I have collected a tiny amount of pollen by tapping on the stems, but the flowers haven't actually dropped or opened much. Hoping for a bit more ...

The Bogglegum at day 14 is doing great. Sex reversal occurred on day 12 after spraying the STS. The Bog also produced male flowers all over the plant in abundance. Looks like it will be a strong producer.

So to sum it up, the mix I have used is as follows:
.5 gram of Silver Nitrate in 200 ml of water
2 grams of Sodium Thiosulfate in 800 ml of water.
NO DILUTION!
Posted by troutmaster on January 27th, 2004 04:19 AM:
A.T.T.T.
Thanks for the info, Yeh it seems the stronger the better. My friend tried full strength on a ww that had a few hairs and now the hairs stopped and it looks like it is trying to change over after
5 days.

Troutmaster
Posted by lucifer on January 27th, 2004 05:46 AM:
I too am working on a male to female reversal spray which I will release the full formula and technique of in a few months, it's not rocket science though a certain value added manufacturer likes to think it is, the downside is that it is more expensive than the CAN$1 per gallon (which includes my labor) that it costs to make sts, but not by much, it's a mix of a few off the shelf commercial greenhouse products far less toxic than sts and food grade ta boot so we can reverse males and smoke the bud or make hash/oil

I urge y'all to pick up a sonic bloom cd from sonicbloom.com, play it and then spray sts, that will get the silver into the plant
Posted by Tafari on January 27th, 2004 06:57 AM:
Afghan will do that to you, eh

Tafari
Posted by troutmaster on January 27th, 2004 04:33 PM:
lucifer,
I dont know what I was thinking when I wrote this.

"I am definitely going to stay on the female side, I dont think I need all male beans."



I guess I was thinking all male , & not the fact that you could get Flowers
Definitely interested
Please keep me posted
Troutmaster
Posted by Fet on January 28th, 2004 02:48 AM:
lucifer your being cheeky again ..lol

You Crack me up your as twisted as me hehe
I could add a few comments but some people just seem to take it to personal around here.

My mother always said don't start another project when the other isn't finished or should I say fully tested?

I'll buy 10 drums name the price!
Posted by aboutToTryThis on January 28th, 2004 02:58 AM:
Yea the Afghan will stone you quite well and now it's the Bogglegum affecting my short term memory loss .

I forgot to mention that my friend and I sprayed his Misty, Orange and Big Bud last weekend.

Hopes are high and so are we.
Posted by aboutToTryThis on January 28th, 2004 03:01 AM:
Me too lucifer, send me 10 drums...
Posted by lucifer on January 28th, 2004 07:19 AM:
I will put the full details into the public domain and you can make your own at pennies per plant reverted, the reversed males will make seeds but not all-male, a smaller % of females though