Registered: Jul 1999
Posts: 136

The last thread got 'disabled' somehow.If it comes back,id like to see more inputs.ifnot?.....hmmm

Its time to face the issues of conservation and preservation cannabis breeders. Are we ready?


December 18th, 2001 12:09 AMhibe

Registered: Jul 1999
Posts: 136

Recapping the SeedMakers thread
Here is a list of some of the pertinent points in the now un-operating "SeedMakers!READ THIS FIRST" thread.
FREE the INFORMATION!!..........cut/paste this before it becomes extinct.



allele - an alternative form of a given gene producing a difference in the trait controlled by that gene; some genes have only one allele, some have two, some have multiple alleles for the same trait.

allozyme - enzymes differing in electrophoretic mobility (i.e., which migrate different distances through the substrate when an electrophoresis test is performed) as a result of allelic differences in a single gene; allozyme variation thus indicates genetic variation. One of the oldest lab tests for genetic analysis.

autochthonous - "sprung from the earth," native to a particular region from a very early time. The Siberian sled dog is an autochthonous dog in Siberia. (Pronounced "aw-TOC-thun-us.")

chromosomes - structures within the nuclei of living cells which are made up of nucleotide sequences, the biochemical information carriers which we call genes. All genes exist as tiny portions of chromosomes; although we may speak of particular genes individually, in isolation, they do not exist as separate entities, but are always found as subunits of chromosomes.

cynological - of or pertaining to the knowledge and study of dogs.

deleterious · harmful or injurious.

diploid - the body cells of most complex animal organisms such as birds and mammals all have their chromosomes in pairs derived from sexual reproduction, such that one chromosome of a pair comes from the father, the other from the mother. The sex cells from only one parent have only half the number of chromosomes of cells in other parts of the body: the normal chromosome number is known as the diploid number, the chromosome number of sperm and egg cells is called the haploid number.

disequilibrium - imbalance or instability.

dominant - said of an allele which by itself alone will produce a particular phenotype regardless of which other allele may be present on the other matching chromosome of the diploid pair; thus it takes only one copy of the chromosome to cause a dominant trait to be expressed in the phenotype.

electrophoresis - one of the most useful lab techniques for revealing genetic variation. which came into widespread use in the 1960s. It involves placing sample material (blood, e.g.) on a gel substrate. An electrical field is then applied between the two ends of the substrate, causing protein molecules to migrate through the gel. Proteins with different ionic charge will travel different distances across the substrate. Staining subsequently makes bands of protein in the substrate visible, so that various samples can be "read" in much the same manner as a supermarket bar coded label.

expression - not all genes possessed by an organism will result in detectable physical traits or differences in that organism; the genes that do are expressed. Dominant genes are always expressed, but recessive genes may be present for many generations without physical expression in the phenotype.

fecundity - the number of progeny produced by animals when reproducing.

fertility - the relative degree of reproductive success, i.e. the frequency with which mating is followed by pregnancy.

gametes - the sex cells of sexually reproducing organisms, i.e. spermatozoa and ova.

genome - the total genetic information possessed by an individual, a breed or a species.

genotype - the invisible genetic makeup of an individual organism, which includes alleles which may be recessive and therefore have no visible physical expression.

heterotypic - displaying different types. A breed which has more than one distinct and recognizable set of "type" characteristics is heterotypic.

heterozygote - an organism that possesses different alleles at a given gene locus.

heterozygous - possessing different alleles at a given gene locus.

holistic - relating to or focussing on the entirety of a thing or an organism and the interrelationship of its component parts, instead of emphasizing different aspects or parts in isolation without considering their interactions.

homozygote - an organism that possesses identical alleles at a given gene locus.

homozygous - possessing identical alleles at a given gene locus.

inbreeding coefficient - a number used to quantify the probability that an organism will have identical alleles from the same ancestral source, usually computed by analyzing the pedigree for "loops" in which the same ancestor is found on both the male and female sides of a mating.

lethal - likely to cause or capable of causing the death of an organism. A lethal gene is one which could either cause an aborted fetus or the death of the organism at some later stage of its life.

locus (pl. loci) - the physical location of a given gene on a particular chromosome.

meiosis - the kind of cell division which produces spermatozoa and ova or gametes and which reduces the chromosome number to half the normal complement.

microsatellite - a kind of DNA testing which detects short DNA sequence variations at particular highly variable sites; used in so-called "DNA fingerprinting."

phenotypic - the visible physical expression of an individual organisms invisible genetic makeup.

polymorphism - difference or variation in form, diversity. Molecular geneticists study protein polymorphism, different forms of proteins in an organism indicating different alleles. Polymorphism studies show that from 20 to 50 percent of gene loci in most species have two or more allele forms.

recessive - a gene which contributes to the phenotype only if it is present in homozygous form. It takes two identical copies of a recessive gene to produce the trait it governs in the phenotype. In practice many genes are neither clearly dominant nor recessive, in which case geneticists speak of variable expressivity or incomplete penetrance.

RFLP - "restriction fragment length polymorphism" -- a DNA analysis technique which involves the use of enzymes to break the DNA chain at specific nucleotide sequences: the resulting "restriction fragments" are then analyzed by the use of electrophoresis and blotting techniques. RFLPs are used as markers for known genetic traits and can be employed for genome mapping.

sublethal - having known deleterious effects which by themselves will not usually cause the death of the organism but which handicap it in some way. Several sublethal genes may nevertheless combine to form a "lethal equivalent."

subvital - having known effects which work to reduce the overall vitality and health of the organism.

typology - the study of types or groups of distinguishing characteristics. Typological thinking involves emphasis on visible superficial characteristics, often mere cosmetic traits which have little to do with the health and viability of the animal possessing them.

viability - the relative survivorship of the fertilized ova resulting from a reproductive event. Nonviability may involve ova which simply fail to develop, fetuses which abort, nestlings which die or juveniles which fail to survive to maturity.
all nontitled posts are hibe.

To clarify,id like to have everyone consider the term 'drug cultivar genepool'- the genepool of genes that we choose to use for smoking and the like. We dont YET consider hemp as being IN the drug cultivar genepool for some obvious reasons. its not considered an ideotype(ideal geno/phenotype) for drug producing plants,and as such is basically isolated from the DC Pool.
We do include resin-producing ssp.indica,sativa,ruderalis and all the interspecific hybrids of these into the DCPool. So, in that sense Tbone, i think we ARE the keepers of the genepool-the drug cultivar genepool. If not WE,then who is?Mother Nature doesnt select hi-thc plants or create Skunk#1s.


..in several respects.The incorporation of equatorial sativas is currently restricted, due to the longer flowering times and taller phenotypes. Hence,the indica genepool is more widely propagated within the DCP, among hobby growers and breeders. Wild indica races may not be available for repair of the DCP in the future.(Wars,harsher laws,loss of habitat,etc..)The laws inadvertently guide the trend we are seeing of breeders interbreeding the 'trinity plants' within the circulating DCPool only, without seeking 'actual' outcrosses to wild equatorial landraces.Only if cannabis were globally legalized,would there be a balance between wide open gene flow and the inseparable allele attrition done by artificial selection.


Breeders inherently provoke the attrition of alleles by strong inbreeding, and low population numbers.they do not reliably cull hermaphroditic or subvital genotypes. They do not reliably retain beneficial alleles.
The rate of genetic attrition currently exceeds the rates of beneficial mutations and immigration/gene flow from wild populations.Unconscientious breeders tend to increase the amounts of genetic attrition/losses.


"Pure,healthy landrace seed" is not easily obtained.Supposed landraces in the form of small imported or privately held seed collections found distributed amongst enthusiasts,seedbanks,auctions,seedswapping clubs and promotional givaways etc,are not reliably descended from the best plants.They are not reliably representative of the Source population or its genome.Hermaphrodites are not culled in commercial import weed populations. Additionally,privately held landraces may be limited in their diversity because of artificial selection imposed by the native farmer,by sample errors and founder events,and/or by laws in their countries. Their usefulness in a serious breeding program-although not a complete loss-may consequently be considerably limiting.

We all acknowledge the recent trend in DC breeding leaning toward inbreeding for the trinity..Methods like multiple backcrosses and recurrent selection strategies are being learned and implemented by breeders more than ever. This of course will be speeding up the process of genetic erosion,and makes safeguarding healthy landraces even more urgent.. *seed buyers who are interested in conservation,may be able to make a statement through their buying habits,by demanding only 'ethical' works-those that arise from ethical,insightful and conservative breeding practices.Dissociate from buying damaged knockoffs, and support the longevity of the genepool.*

Although todays breeder may "outcross" a WW to a Skunk#1, or to any other drug cultivar in circulation,this is still very much within the boundries of the DCPool. In the world today,with more and more frequency,crosses are becoming of somewhat-related ancestry.Seedbanks who create the flavor of the month are drawing from this same genepool. In the near future, the senseless overuse of gratuitous crossings may bear itself out to being more likened to inbreeding, as more and more alleles become common to each other;become homozygous alleles by descent,necessitating a repair strategy....and nobody available to do the job.

we have much to learn first.the author of the text gives other ideas and i have a few of my own ill lay on you later.some ideas wont be popular to the seedmakers and the moneymakers......
(Snake Dyke)It seems that our human concept of a true type i.e. 'pure breeding' is merely an intention to limit the gene pool from which the organism is derived. It is a static solution towards which one strives. If we are after the 'knockout strain' then its already in danger of extinction once it has been 'defined'.
Perhaps a dynamic approach is more in order and also more appropriate for the small grower. So instead of aiming for the ideal strain and then when it is found thereafter perpetually inbreed, one might aim for a desirable quality or two, say strength and type of high, or taste or yield; and then outcrossing with this or that existing IBL or seedbank offering in an effort to enhance the desired characteristic(s).
That way one is focussing the desirable genes as an ongoing process. The qualities that are not so important (say) phenotype or flowering time, will be open for variation.over time. There would be no aim for a true breeding type, just for a type that maximises the desirable qualities.
All smokes change over time as one acclimatises to them , anyway.
Just my tuppence worth. (SnakeDyke)

>>>>Nice tuppence!SnakeDyke has a great option..dont you think people??
That was a nice option to following the same path of dog "type breeders" down the well of inbreeding for the trinity dogs.. It also was a very appropriate strategy,considering the nature of our outcrossing species;one that supplys both Our needs, and its needs.
Implementing strategies paralleling his thoughts could cause a beneficial shift in the current dogma of "crossing everything you got for money", back toward a world where F1 hybrid lines would be respected and appreciated for what they do for us:
-consistant producers of its unique phenotype.
-True F1 populations would be from IBLines and therefore would reliably represent the traits it was crossed for in all the progeny of the first generation.
-improved means for the important traits,as captured by breeders in their insightful exploitation of heterosis... and ideal parental combinations.
Also, a true F1 line will 'really' segregate in F2 and will not be as desirable as the 'F1.bred for consumer use' generation. Hack-breeders, theoretically will not survive long in a world of informed consumers with now-higher expectations for their seeds....and then theres the icing....healthier,sustainable genepool!

today the line between varieties has been wiped out. No plants,or FEW plants maybe, follow a set of characters that distinguishes them from other varieties. If one comes along it is quickly chopped apart and blurred.the pool of cannabis varieties is mixed together with no defining lines. Nobody can recognize beyond doubt if a plant is this,or that.The law permits this kind of "path of least resistance" breeding and the wiping of the lines. Not to say that we should breed too rigorously at the expense of other necessary genes. i think we'd be well served by increasing the knowledge base of breeders AND limiting the flow of JUNK from those who cannot select the best of the best due to laziness or lack of facility,haste,greed,ignorance,carelessness,ego etc.. the Internet is rampant with line-erasers,and nobody seems to worry................................

i agree that hobby seed would not be dangerous, if the hobby seed was not damaged by the 'cheaters' and the 'greedy'. The Internet and those who require funding to run their 'for-profit-websites'(seedbanks etc) facilitate the exploitation of the genepool.Imo, they are accessories to the 'crime'. not only that, but MJ has a homocidal mating system that even a human teenager can figure out how to exploit,which is too bad. until its considered wrong,or politically incorrect,or not profitable to breed the species without knowledge of its inner workings,it will continue im afraid.
(Chimera)Electrophoresis is not only used for seperating proteins. DNA and RNA can also be purified and run through gels, this is actually more common (Southern and Northern Blotting). Dyes are typically mixed in with the samples or loading buffers before the gels are run.

The molecules are not only separated by charge, but by size and shape (tertiary and quaternary structure). Think of the gels as a large 3D matrix- (sort of like people walking through a crowd- a short skinny person would be able to work their way through the crowd more easily than a tall fat person because they can squeeze through the spaces more easily). Same goes for the genetic material and the resulting proteins- the smaller molecules will pass through the matrix more easily, whereas the larger ones will migrate more slowly. The density of the gels (percent polyacrylamide content) can be varied to select for seperation certain sized molecules.
As hibe's excerpt shows, relative charge is also a factor- a more negaively charged particle will be pushed farther in the gel.

RFLP- "RFLPs are used as markers for known genetic traits and can be employed for genome mapping."

True. RFLP markers can also be scored as mendelian markers for linkage analysis. Even if the markers don't correspond to specific traits, they are still useful in determining which is linked to what.

Data from unpublished RFLP analysis has already shown that drug cultivars show remarkably less degree of polymorphism than does hemp, which in my mind is a direct testament to the founder effect that has already occured within the drug cannabis pool.

Having recently spent a week in Holland, I should say that the task at hand is unfortuneately more desperate than you could imagine. From the dutch breeders I spoke with, I would say that almost all of them are unaware of the perils of improper selection. But again, they don't really care. Most dutch seedbanks have their hands in two baskets at once- many are only concerned with filling their coffeeshops with as much bud as possible- that is where the money is. Some of the most respected dutch seedbanks don't make selections from more than 100 seeds. Quality, healthy plants are not the goal- SEED for sale to anyone that wants it is. There are so many westerners who are reasy to gobble up whatever new treat comes down the pike.
I thought about a theoretical seed breeding procedure where many growers would participate...participants would grow out the seeds,using fairly rigid artificial selection-possibly even a directional selection procedure as directed by the Group,or Manager so that each cycle would have a common purpose and therefore a common direction-,make an open pollination amongst their 'keeper' sample population,and send the beans back to a Central Project Manager,ifyouwill...Project Manager mixes all the beans together and ships them back out to all the participants to grow out and select again,and return their ascessions to the Manager for the next generation. this random 're-assortment' would shape the populations adaptability to various indoor settings,would improve the means of the trinity, and would maintain diversity. the project could continue indefinately,and participants could come and go if they needed to(or had to),as the "roomrace" would continue to evolve and stay healthy.
Heres a scenario I think happens,and will continue to happen..you could think of this as fantasy or reality....i bring this as a model to show how what we have is being eroded away,but the surface appears yet intact so that it goes unnoticed....for now.
A grower/hobby breeder buys 2 different 10paks from a "responsible" Dutch Bank.This grower-guy is not concerned with diversity,money is easy to make online he finds, and so he inbreeds both sets with only 2 parents apiece and in 4 months he makes his own 'NL and C99'. He is welcomed to the auction and sells his stuff on the internet in 10 paks,instantly generating this easy money...
..another guy gets those 2 kinds(20 seeds),grows them out,grabs a male from one and a female from the other,again,irrespective of how they may combine or what genes lie within, and crosses those two kinds together.he 'creates' C99xNL... this C99xNL seedlot-although an "F1", although a once highly regarded lineage, and heterogeneous on the surface, was actually constructed from only 6 ancestors,in the span of one year or less. the seeds still grow into MJ for certain,but healthy??

Now,lets use our imaginations a bit and consider the number of these "founder events" that may have already occurred in the DCPool-not just since Internet seed sales and Auctions- but in the last 40 years of DC breeding for indoor use..a million founder events..with more than likely,non-ideotypic parent-plants due to draconian laws,ignorance,etc........
...Consider in the near future now,.. that very much of this has since occurred,and there has been no considerable numbers of breeders seeking out and incorporating Philipino and Mindanao 'repair' landraces (because there was no money in that), and that now attempting outcrossings within the DC pool at this point has minimal negating effects on inbreeding depression...so now its time to find the repair strains...
...Also consider how certain people who deal seeds around here have long been flying around the world,taking seedlots from inside this shriveling genepool to his trans-world seed connections. ..who have been happily incorporating things like severely-inbred Blueberry,damaged Thai, and hermaphroditic Dutch WW into the landraces for years......and now hes returned to collect the landraces to save the day ....

We need to honestly admit that people who sprout 3 expensive seeds(seeds are not free to everyone anymore), cross WHAT THEY HAVE,not WHAT THEY FOUND TO BE THE BEST OPTION,or what they determined was best for the health of the next generation of seedlings or the DCP. They,imo,are most definately NOT ALWAYS selecting the best plants to retain or improve the mean and also keep the trinity mean up. Nor are they culling hermaphrodites and other degenerative anomolies.in a perfect world,they would,but its not one.

"Plant species that were once widespread, outcrossed, and diverse are most sensitive to declines in genetic variation associated with restrictions in range or population size, such as inbreeding depression (Schaal et al., 1991; Huennecke, 1991)."

......assessment of the scene in Holland today, and also Steves account of the already SEVERELY limited geno/chemotypic diversity there???.....wasnt much commentary on those subjects was there? did we space that everybody?? avoid it? This is a major Source for the DCPool.whether you choose to recognize it or not,this is where a good proportion of the DC seed was/is added in,and likely to often be the Source for SEEDBANK GERMPLASM as well as 'klosirosion'..That same Source population is in limitation right now and nobody is willing to entertain the idea that the behaviors they partake in might be detrimental...

Pot breeders do select plants on "looks".You chose to call it the trinity.(which i dont fully subscribe to)... arf lists 17 criteria above. It requires a holistic harmony to be an acceptable,useful plant POPULATION.

i am NOT disputing the concept that this species would be well-served by the practice of outcrossing.of course it would. I am talking about recognizing a potential problem ahead and that BALANCE will be the key to the balancing act we do on DCcannabis.. We must recognize that senseless repeated intercrossings of the DCP do not help diversity.Genetic attrition exceeds immigration today and in the foreseeable future.it is better left un-manipulated by fools.

(sharrina)i have been buying seeds since the mid eighties,and we have a few keeper clones from that time,till this very point in time nothing has been able to out class these girls,i,m seeing more plants prone to powdery mildew,and they are definately not geting more potent.I wish i knew what seed co was doing the right thing for the pool so i could boycot all the others,i know of one that is fixing mold problems but i won't mention his name cause i'll probably get beat up haha.

(Sir Haze)I have noticed that it is generaly exceptet that some plants have genetic injuries, in blueberry curled leaves in the seedlings is almost a selection criteria, that´s bad and any responsible breeder would trow it out (like Tbone says), I also saw on DP website that in there blueberry it´s common that the leaves have white stripes (no clorophyl) I have also seen this in there California Orange, they say that it dos´nt have any affect in the healthyness of the plants, well maybe not in this generation but what are those injured genes connected too, we don´t know, it could be resistance against vira or high potency. .....the thing sharinal proposes is actualy a good idea, why don´t we rate the seedmakers here, not after fast shipping, low prices and stuff like that, but after consistensy, healthyness, and open(nes) to the the puplic about what they are doing, I would like to give a few examples but it might draw some negative karma to this tread.
TBone:"There are some areas you have raised that bear careful consideration.
Clark's biggest concern seemed to me that if cannabis was legalized, it would be grown commercially and the commercial strains would be mingling with local land races and they would be lost. I think he has a good point. "

(Vic High)Our market place is full of inferior products and we have example after example of inferior products replacing superior ones because the inferior ones are backed by better marketing.

Lets take the trait 'aroma'.Lets assume for the sake of discussion, that it requires 5 loci on different chromosomes and their differing alleles to combine in such a way(the ideal genotype)to give the bubblegum smell in its utmost intensity.
Lets assume that the Original population contained 3 different alleles at each of the 5 loci.It was found by the Original(seedbank) breeder that a specific combination of THEIR parents gives mostly bubblegum-smelling offspring.thats 15 alleles in the original bubblegum population,for aroma right?....
The next breeder is careless,and grows out 10 plants and picks 2 plants to inbreed,'hoping' that he has fixed the best genotype,or even hopes he has made many offspring with it..Since there can only be 2 alleles at each locus in a diploid,and this grower only selected 2 plants for this cross, drift has occurred and it is likely(through chance)some number of alleles have been lost and so, many allelic combinations are now lost in the new population(that the grower is still calling bubblegum btw).
Certainly the new population is more stable because there are far less possibilities for the new population to wander to...
Lets say he inbreeds it again with single plants(like a cubing process MAY entail)and again there are losses due to the fact that the spectrum of genetic diversity in this new 'refined' population cannot reliably be found and propagated into the next population from a test sample of only 2 plants.

Now lets say the next breeder is more serious and gets ahold of 1000 seeds of THIS fabulously-descended seedlot called "Bubblegum"...he plans to grow out 1000 plants in order to capture that ideal bubblegum plant. But,the genes are not there any more;the alleles that once provided themselves for that ideal combination are gone because novice breeders did not know that they were eroding their genepool with every unfortunate breeding event..the pieces of the puzzle missing forever.This new genepool gives VERY similar looking plants, but very few that hint of the smell bubblegum,and none found to exceed the average clone he had seen years before...in fact, these were worse!..hes bummed out because he just spent 5 months on this growout to discover the seedlot has been damaged beyond an easy repair.


It is without a doubt, the best policy to restrict unfortunate breeding events;Closet events.. The genepool is not infinite.Every breeding event is a founder event. Creating widely diverse populations NOW and 'pulling projects' from these Founder populations might be a strategy to consider;consider conserving beneficial genes before there is only one allele per locus left.

Limiting the number of senseless single-plant crosses will prolong the diversity of the total genepool. Cannabis breeders are at the mercy of beneficial mutation and immigration,which is not proportional to the attrition of genes today solely due to the number of uneducated, or unwilling to be educated breeders. It is crucial that we realize this, and make motions toward conserving the genepool, before the losses drain the pool-which essentially leaves us with only a couple/few options of TYPE(chemo,pheno,geno) in the future. The few options of plant types will not be diverse enough to be improved any further. IMO, there is not enough useful diversity of type already.So many 'strains' are already just duplications.
Today, plant selection and breeding events are better left to those insightful breeders who can use the resource to improve current populations. Those who blindly take genes and erode the chances of creating improved genetic combinations in the future, should stop immediately..and be discouraged to continue this vandalizing.Diluted seed should not be sold, and closet-style breeding for instant gratification should not be rewarded or encouraged any more.

Something we all might consider doing/trying?,since famous SINGLE genotypes/clones,seedlines and crosses get bred back into the 'pool at higher rates...seed swapping 'similarly-pedigreed seed';consolidating replications of the same cross.
...say, 5 different people have made the same cross..i.e.(C99xSK#1),it may be good to consolidate the seedlines,to simulate that many more parents were used.This increases the chances of re-introducing lost alleles to these smaller founder populations and would increase the diversity in F2s.Since many of todays crosses dont classify as a cultivar or line, it would only serve to increase the options in each person's seedlot.This becomes even more apparent in cases where a 'famous clone' is passed around to many(like Internet,medclubsetc)and each breeder does a backcross to it..accumulating 5 breeders' seedlots might be good for diversity/longevity. .Trade someone for a seedlot they have that you need to build your populations genetic diversity up,and give them something they want,or better yet something that would help them achieve some IMPORTANT breeding goal. Dont swap seeds just for the purpose of more useless,thoughtless hybrids.